Post by TRUE EB0LA on Jun 30, 2016 10:02:19 GMT -5
ALL CREDIT FOR THIS GUIDE GOES TO u/Qlockwerk
Preface - I know that this post is going to be very long and involve a lot of calculations. If anything, please check out the first and simplified section. And if you really just want the TL;DR version, here is the simplified conclusion: Fusion Grenades thrown at the maximum rate under Radiance deal 97.6% the DPS of perfect Black Spindle critical shots against bosses (ultras) alone. The addition of Touch of Flame + Viking Funeral allows Fusion Grenades to have greater DPS than the Black Spindle and therefore their value for you and your Fireteam should never be underestimated. The issue is a lot more complex than this, but that’s what the entire post if for.
Once upon a time I did some testing and wrote a guide on the impact of the new Viking Funeral and how it affected the Sunsinger’s grenades. Sadly, that guide didn’t gain much traction and fell into the depths of this subreddit. However, Datto uploaded a video to YouTube yesterday, which you can find here, and detailed his testing and theorycrafting of the new perk. Unfortunately, his testing missed several critical elements which renders his conclusions rather inaccurate at best (never mentioned Fusion Grenades and their properties/damage). Here I am once again, now with more clear testing and images/videos to demonstrate exactly how powerful the new Viking Funeral perk is with Fusion Grenades.
I would also like to point out that while I am using Datto’s video as a reference and essentially trying to point out the inaccuracies, I do not hold anything against him or his content. The only reason why I know about this is because I watch his content and occasionally lurk in his stream. This is just a matter of fact that I once did this research and that my numbers and observations were in the opposite direction of what he theorized and concluded. This is nothing more than a clarification and an informative piece of writing and that he did discover some very valuable points otherwise.
DPS: Fusion Grenades vs Black Spindle (Simplified)
Light Level 240
*The Dreg dies in one hit, so the second hit of 8826 damage does not register.
Light Level 310
* No Majors in the Sylok room. However, Fusion Greandes are unaffected by enemy rank.
** No Majors in the Sylok room. However, Majors experience 45% damage compared to normal enemies. This is an estimate.
First thing we notice is that Fusion Grenades become increasingly more effective as you move up enemy rank. When we look at bosses (ultras), we see that a single Fusion Grenade without perks deals 107.4% the damage of a Black Spindle critical shot. Landing your Fusion Grenades against bosses tends to be easy as they’re large and do not move around rapidly with very few exceptions. Secondly, the % Difference between the two remain constant when Light Level changes but everything else remains constant. When we factor in that Fusion Grenades can be thrown at a maximum rate of one per 1.1s, we can calculate that they optimally deal 97.6% the DPS of a perfectly timed and handled Black Spindle. Fusion Grenades thrown at the maximum rate under Radiance deal 97.6% the DPS of perfect Black Spindle critical shots against bosses (ultras) alone. The addition of Touch of Flame + Viking Funeral allows Fusion Grenades to have greater DPS than the Black Spindle and therefore their value for you and your Fireteam should never be underestimated. Even without the addition of Touch of Flame + Viking Funeral, there is only a minor loss in DPS (2.4%). Once you add in the additional damage from Viking Funeral, it becomes increasingly clear that Fusion Grenades can out-DPS a Black Spindle. Viking Funeral positively affects your Fireteam’s damage and therefore should be used.
This is the simplified version of the story. There is a lot of additional factors that needs to be considered before we can safely say that Fusion Grenades + Viking Funeral is a viable alternative to just shooting a Black Spindle at a boss.
Reliably Achieving 3 Stacks of Viking Funeral
One critical aspect that Datto demonstrated in his video is that you cannot reliably get to 3 stacks of Viking Funeral using Solar and Firebolt Grenades. This makes mathematical sense. Burn duration is 2.5s and the maximum you can throw grenades is at 1.1s. If our first stack is applied at 0s, our second would be at 1.1s and our third at 2.2s. This leave 0.3s of 3 stacks before the first stack disappears and therefore is unreliable.
However, Fusion Grenades have a unique property of hitting the enemy twice if they are attached. This means our first grenade applies two stacks at 0s and our second grenade applies the third stack at 1.1s. Our third grenade refreshes the soon to expire first two stacks at 2.2s and therefore allows us to maintain 3 stacks of Viking Funeral during Radiance.
Another important aspect that Datto covered is that each stack of Viking Funeral is multiplicative rather than additive. Therefore one stack provides a 5% increase, two stacks provides a 10.25% increase and three stacks provides a 15.76% increase in damage.
Here’s our LL310 Ultra again, but this time we have Touch of Flame + Viking Funeral specced.
So we’ve got this portion covered. If you use Fusion Grenades, you can reliably provide the 15.76% additional damage to you and your Fireteam. If we look at the previously mentioned simplified maths that Sunsingers using Fusion Grenades have a relative Black Spindle DPS of 97.6% - our reliable increase gives us a 113% relative DPS with Fusion Grenades under Radiance with Touch of Flame + Viking Funeral and holding steady at 3 stacks.
But once again, things aren’t so simple since we need to compare how many grenades we get under Radiance and compare that to a full Black Spindle.
Radiance, Grenades Thrown and Relative DPS
This is the all important variable when we are making a direct comparison to the Black Spindle. Our gear choices affect our grenade numbers under Radiance. And this time we will look at real grenade spam than just assuming we are throwing them at a rate of one per 1.1s. Below are some videos showing how many grenades we can squeeze out of Radiance using different gear.
We see that both Heart of the Praxic Fire and Starfire Protocol (via Gift of the Sun) provides additional grenades and duration and should be considered as helpful exotics. Heart would be better suited if Song of Flame is your jam or having the versitility of two Fusion Grenades via Starfire Protocol. We also saw there is a small lag between the first grenades, using Radiance and then resuming. For argument’s sake, it is possible there’s a small period of only 2 stacks rather than 3 stacks. However, when looking at Sniper Rifles and bosses, you may not experience a 2 stack lag during shooting. And if you do, it’s only for one shot. For all calculations, we are assuming you do not experience that and you stay on 3 stacks after the second grenade.
Now we need to consider the Relative DPS of Fusion Grenades by doing a direct comparison to a perfect Black Spindle. Here’s how it works. We know a single Fusion Grenade deals 107.4% the damage of a Black Spindle shot against a boss. The first grenade does not experience any bonus damage (although there are occurances where one or two stacks can sneak in, but we shall ignore this). The second grenade experiences an extra 10.25% (1.052) increase. All subsequent grenades experience the full 15.76% (1.053) damage increase. Sum up all the grenade damage and then divide by its duration. Since damage is in Black Spindle terms (107.4% against bosses), this gives us our relative damage.
Other Exotics: 1.074 + 1.074*1.052 + 9*(1.074*1.053)=13.45 --> 13.45 / 14s=0.9605 Relative DPS
Heart of the Praxic Fire: 1.074 + 1.074*1.052 + 11*(1.074*1.053)=15.9 --> 15.9 / 14.75s=1.080 Relative DPS
Gift of the Sun:1.074 + 1.074*1.052 + 12*(1.074*1.053)=17.2 --> 17.2 / 16s=1.074 Relative DPS
When factoring in more relatistic expectations, we see that all forms of Fusion Grenades + Viking Funeral is comparable to that of shooting a Black Spindle perfectly. Specific exotics increase DPS slightly whereas using any other causes a slight decrease. But for argument’s sake, they all provide roughly the same total damage during their duration (1.000)
One of Datto’s conclusions was there would be a sizeable portion of missing damage when a Sunsinger is not shooting a Black Spindle. He did mention that he believed that grenade damage could indeed add up - but would otherwise just be a break even point and that there wasn’t a major benefit to running Viking Funeral. However, I believe I have solidly proven that no real damage goes missing. Either you do a little extra or a little less depending on your gear. But this does not include the burn effect nor how much additional damage you get from Viking Funeral with your Fireteam. Therefore, it is always beneficial to stop shooting, use Radiance and throw Fusion Grenades with Viking Funeral to your heart’s content.
Buffing Fireteams
So now this is the all important part. How much extra damage do we get by a Sunsinger throwing Fusion Grenades under Radiance? What happens if there’s a Weapons of Light buff available that doesn’t affect grenades? Is this really all that useful?
In short, the answers are we get more total damage, we still get more total damage and yes it’s really that useful. Also it is important point out that the Sunsinger can still use his/her Black Spindle after Radiance expires (and possibly take advantage of a Defender’s Weapons of Light if available) as the max duration is between 14-16s.
Lets consider a single Black Spindle first. A Black Spindle can hold either 15 or 17 rounds before running out and lets assume there’s no special ammo on the ground nearby. Lets also assume we’re dealing with 15 round version for simplicity’s sake (Burn lasts an extra 2.5s after the listed duration, but drops to 2 stacks for the last tiny portion). The first Black Spindle shot hits before the first grenade and experiences no extra damage. The second shot experiences two stacks and all subsequent shots (13) experience 3 stacks. The damage a single Fireteam member would experience is:
1.00 + 1.00*1.052 + 13(1.00*1.053)=17.15 --> 17.15 / 15 shots=1.143 DPS Increase
So realistically, one Fireteam member gets a 14.3% increase in damage across 15 shots. Assuming the Sunsinger provides DPS consistent of a Black Spindle alone (1.000) we see that:
Without Weapons of Light:
Strikes: 1.143*2 + 1.000=3.286 --> 3.286 - 3=0.286 DPS of a Black Spindle Increase (28.6%)
Raids: 1.143*5 + 1.000=6.715 --> 6.715 - 6=0.715 DPS of a Black Spindle Increase (71.5%)
With Weapons of Light (+35% Weapon’s Damage with Illuminated):
Strikes: (1.143*1.35)*2 + 1.000=4.086 --> 4.086 - 3*1.35=0.036 DPS of a Black Spindle Increase (3.6%)
Raids: (1.143*1.35)*5 + 1.00=8.715 --> 8.715 - 6*1.35=0.615 DPS of a Black Spindle Increase (61.5%)
And there we have it. Without Weapons of Light, we see an extra 28.6% and 71.5% DPS of a Black Spinde increase for the Fireteam during Strikes and Raids respectively by throwing Fusion Grenades compared to just shooting 6 Spindles. With Weapons of Light and Illuminated, we see an extra 3.6% and 61.5% DPS of a Black Spindle increase for the Fireteam during Strikes and Raids respectively by throwing Fusion Grenades compared to shooting 6 Spindles. While the numbers do drop if there is a Weapons bubble handy, the Sunsinger can follow up with their own Black Spindle and buffs to further increase damage during prolonged DPS phases.
The Last Word
If you’ve made it this far, kudos to you. I hope you found this piece of Destiny Science to be both fun and informative. If there are any errors in calculation or methods, please let me know. Happy to take questions! Now go out there and throw Fusion Grenades at everything.
While there is current discussion on King’s Fall viability. I would like to point out that this will still likely have an impact on the Rise of Iron raid... Unless all the bosses behave in different ways.
Forgot to mention one small detail when playing solo. You’ll get more grenades and more total damage running Gift of the Sun + Radiant Will than Touch of Flame + Viking Funeral. The extra damage from the latter is meant to be a support combination when playing in a Fireteam.
SOURCE
Preface - I know that this post is going to be very long and involve a lot of calculations. If anything, please check out the first and simplified section. And if you really just want the TL;DR version, here is the simplified conclusion: Fusion Grenades thrown at the maximum rate under Radiance deal 97.6% the DPS of perfect Black Spindle critical shots against bosses (ultras) alone. The addition of Touch of Flame + Viking Funeral allows Fusion Grenades to have greater DPS than the Black Spindle and therefore their value for you and your Fireteam should never be underestimated. The issue is a lot more complex than this, but that’s what the entire post if for.
Once upon a time I did some testing and wrote a guide on the impact of the new Viking Funeral and how it affected the Sunsinger’s grenades. Sadly, that guide didn’t gain much traction and fell into the depths of this subreddit. However, Datto uploaded a video to YouTube yesterday, which you can find here, and detailed his testing and theorycrafting of the new perk. Unfortunately, his testing missed several critical elements which renders his conclusions rather inaccurate at best (never mentioned Fusion Grenades and their properties/damage). Here I am once again, now with more clear testing and images/videos to demonstrate exactly how powerful the new Viking Funeral perk is with Fusion Grenades.
I would also like to point out that while I am using Datto’s video as a reference and essentially trying to point out the inaccuracies, I do not hold anything against him or his content. The only reason why I know about this is because I watch his content and occasionally lurk in his stream. This is just a matter of fact that I once did this research and that my numbers and observations were in the opposite direction of what he theorized and concluded. This is nothing more than a clarification and an informative piece of writing and that he did discover some very valuable points otherwise.
DPS: Fusion Grenades vs Black Spindle (Simplified)
- Here’s my Sunsinger at LL335 - Light level has an impact on grenade damage.
- 335 Black Spindle w/ Field Choke - This maximizes the impact of the Spindle.
- Grenades have a 1.1sec delay between throws. Black Spindle has a maximum rate of fire of 1 bullet/sec.
- Tested against two samples of enemies: LL240 VIP patrol and LL310 Challenge of the Elders (no heroic/epic modifiers).
- Note that Fusion Grenades hit enemies twice when attached (two numbers). The initial attachment damage (which is a third number) was ignored.
Light Level 240
*The Dreg dies in one hit, so the second hit of 8826 damage does not register.
Light Level 310
* No Majors in the Sylok room. However, Fusion Greandes are unaffected by enemy rank.
** No Majors in the Sylok room. However, Majors experience 45% damage compared to normal enemies. This is an estimate.
First thing we notice is that Fusion Grenades become increasingly more effective as you move up enemy rank. When we look at bosses (ultras), we see that a single Fusion Grenade without perks deals 107.4% the damage of a Black Spindle critical shot. Landing your Fusion Grenades against bosses tends to be easy as they’re large and do not move around rapidly with very few exceptions. Secondly, the % Difference between the two remain constant when Light Level changes but everything else remains constant. When we factor in that Fusion Grenades can be thrown at a maximum rate of one per 1.1s, we can calculate that they optimally deal 97.6% the DPS of a perfectly timed and handled Black Spindle. Fusion Grenades thrown at the maximum rate under Radiance deal 97.6% the DPS of perfect Black Spindle critical shots against bosses (ultras) alone. The addition of Touch of Flame + Viking Funeral allows Fusion Grenades to have greater DPS than the Black Spindle and therefore their value for you and your Fireteam should never be underestimated. Even without the addition of Touch of Flame + Viking Funeral, there is only a minor loss in DPS (2.4%). Once you add in the additional damage from Viking Funeral, it becomes increasingly clear that Fusion Grenades can out-DPS a Black Spindle. Viking Funeral positively affects your Fireteam’s damage and therefore should be used.
This is the simplified version of the story. There is a lot of additional factors that needs to be considered before we can safely say that Fusion Grenades + Viking Funeral is a viable alternative to just shooting a Black Spindle at a boss.
Reliably Achieving 3 Stacks of Viking Funeral
One critical aspect that Datto demonstrated in his video is that you cannot reliably get to 3 stacks of Viking Funeral using Solar and Firebolt Grenades. This makes mathematical sense. Burn duration is 2.5s and the maximum you can throw grenades is at 1.1s. If our first stack is applied at 0s, our second would be at 1.1s and our third at 2.2s. This leave 0.3s of 3 stacks before the first stack disappears and therefore is unreliable.
However, Fusion Grenades have a unique property of hitting the enemy twice if they are attached. This means our first grenade applies two stacks at 0s and our second grenade applies the third stack at 1.1s. Our third grenade refreshes the soon to expire first two stacks at 2.2s and therefore allows us to maintain 3 stacks of Viking Funeral during Radiance.
Another important aspect that Datto covered is that each stack of Viking Funeral is multiplicative rather than additive. Therefore one stack provides a 5% increase, two stacks provides a 10.25% increase and three stacks provides a 15.76% increase in damage.
Here’s our LL310 Ultra again, but this time we have Touch of Flame + Viking Funeral specced.
- First we shoot our 335 Hung Jury for a base critical damage test of 2095
- Next we throw our single Fusion Grenade and shoot again for 2309. Note you can see two instances of 49 burn damage stacked to the bottom left of the scope.
- The lone grenade increased our damage by 10.21%, roughly consistent with two stacks (there was likely some internal rounding on the displayed number and not a range issue)
- If we were to use Radiance and just throw grenades quickly, we can see that our previous total damage of 14312 scales up to 16569. This gives us an increase in damage by 15.77% and is consistent given a small degree of internal rounding. This was achieved through grenades alone and demonstrates that you can use three stacks to your own advantage while playing solo.
So we’ve got this portion covered. If you use Fusion Grenades, you can reliably provide the 15.76% additional damage to you and your Fireteam. If we look at the previously mentioned simplified maths that Sunsingers using Fusion Grenades have a relative Black Spindle DPS of 97.6% - our reliable increase gives us a 113% relative DPS with Fusion Grenades under Radiance with Touch of Flame + Viking Funeral and holding steady at 3 stacks.
But once again, things aren’t so simple since we need to compare how many grenades we get under Radiance and compare that to a full Black Spindle.
Radiance, Grenades Thrown and Relative DPS
This is the all important variable when we are making a direct comparison to the Black Spindle. Our gear choices affect our grenade numbers under Radiance. And this time we will look at real grenade spam than just assuming we are throwing them at a rate of one per 1.1s. Below are some videos showing how many grenades we can squeeze out of Radiance using different gear.
- Optimal grenade usage is to throw your grenades first and then immediately use Radiance.The animation takes up some of our Radiance time but allows the animation to recharge our grenades in the meantime.
- Three different setups were used: Claws of Ahamkara (for ‘other exotics’), Heart of the Praxic Fire (for further reduced cooldown) and Gift of the Sun (simulating Starfire Protocol or Sunbreakers).
- Gauntlets always had increased melee attack speed specced just for added consistency but should have no effect.
- Duration measures the time from the first grenade explosion to the last to give a measure of true DPS.
- Relative DPS is that compared to constant Black Spindle shots in the given timeframe (equal value would be 1.00). Relative DPS calculations are posted below the table as they are fairly involved.
| Gear | Grenades Thrown | Duration | Relative DPS |
| Other Exotics | 11 | 14s | 0.9605 |
| Heart of the Praxic Fire | 13 | 14.75s | 1.080 |
| Gift of the Sun | 14 | 16s | 1.074 |
We see that both Heart of the Praxic Fire and Starfire Protocol (via Gift of the Sun) provides additional grenades and duration and should be considered as helpful exotics. Heart would be better suited if Song of Flame is your jam or having the versitility of two Fusion Grenades via Starfire Protocol. We also saw there is a small lag between the first grenades, using Radiance and then resuming. For argument’s sake, it is possible there’s a small period of only 2 stacks rather than 3 stacks. However, when looking at Sniper Rifles and bosses, you may not experience a 2 stack lag during shooting. And if you do, it’s only for one shot. For all calculations, we are assuming you do not experience that and you stay on 3 stacks after the second grenade.
Now we need to consider the Relative DPS of Fusion Grenades by doing a direct comparison to a perfect Black Spindle. Here’s how it works. We know a single Fusion Grenade deals 107.4% the damage of a Black Spindle shot against a boss. The first grenade does not experience any bonus damage (although there are occurances where one or two stacks can sneak in, but we shall ignore this). The second grenade experiences an extra 10.25% (1.052) increase. All subsequent grenades experience the full 15.76% (1.053) damage increase. Sum up all the grenade damage and then divide by its duration. Since damage is in Black Spindle terms (107.4% against bosses), this gives us our relative damage.
Other Exotics: 1.074 + 1.074*1.052 + 9*(1.074*1.053)=13.45 --> 13.45 / 14s=0.9605 Relative DPS
Heart of the Praxic Fire: 1.074 + 1.074*1.052 + 11*(1.074*1.053)=15.9 --> 15.9 / 14.75s=1.080 Relative DPS
Gift of the Sun:1.074 + 1.074*1.052 + 12*(1.074*1.053)=17.2 --> 17.2 / 16s=1.074 Relative DPS
When factoring in more relatistic expectations, we see that all forms of Fusion Grenades + Viking Funeral is comparable to that of shooting a Black Spindle perfectly. Specific exotics increase DPS slightly whereas using any other causes a slight decrease. But for argument’s sake, they all provide roughly the same total damage during their duration (1.000)
One of Datto’s conclusions was there would be a sizeable portion of missing damage when a Sunsinger is not shooting a Black Spindle. He did mention that he believed that grenade damage could indeed add up - but would otherwise just be a break even point and that there wasn’t a major benefit to running Viking Funeral. However, I believe I have solidly proven that no real damage goes missing. Either you do a little extra or a little less depending on your gear. But this does not include the burn effect nor how much additional damage you get from Viking Funeral with your Fireteam. Therefore, it is always beneficial to stop shooting, use Radiance and throw Fusion Grenades with Viking Funeral to your heart’s content.
Buffing Fireteams
So now this is the all important part. How much extra damage do we get by a Sunsinger throwing Fusion Grenades under Radiance? What happens if there’s a Weapons of Light buff available that doesn’t affect grenades? Is this really all that useful?
In short, the answers are we get more total damage, we still get more total damage and yes it’s really that useful. Also it is important point out that the Sunsinger can still use his/her Black Spindle after Radiance expires (and possibly take advantage of a Defender’s Weapons of Light if available) as the max duration is between 14-16s.
Lets consider a single Black Spindle first. A Black Spindle can hold either 15 or 17 rounds before running out and lets assume there’s no special ammo on the ground nearby. Lets also assume we’re dealing with 15 round version for simplicity’s sake (Burn lasts an extra 2.5s after the listed duration, but drops to 2 stacks for the last tiny portion). The first Black Spindle shot hits before the first grenade and experiences no extra damage. The second shot experiences two stacks and all subsequent shots (13) experience 3 stacks. The damage a single Fireteam member would experience is:
1.00 + 1.00*1.052 + 13(1.00*1.053)=17.15 --> 17.15 / 15 shots=1.143 DPS Increase
So realistically, one Fireteam member gets a 14.3% increase in damage across 15 shots. Assuming the Sunsinger provides DPS consistent of a Black Spindle alone (1.000) we see that:
Without Weapons of Light:
Strikes: 1.143*2 + 1.000=3.286 --> 3.286 - 3=0.286 DPS of a Black Spindle Increase (28.6%)
Raids: 1.143*5 + 1.000=6.715 --> 6.715 - 6=0.715 DPS of a Black Spindle Increase (71.5%)
With Weapons of Light (+35% Weapon’s Damage with Illuminated):
Strikes: (1.143*1.35)*2 + 1.000=4.086 --> 4.086 - 3*1.35=0.036 DPS of a Black Spindle Increase (3.6%)
Raids: (1.143*1.35)*5 + 1.00=8.715 --> 8.715 - 6*1.35=0.615 DPS of a Black Spindle Increase (61.5%)
And there we have it. Without Weapons of Light, we see an extra 28.6% and 71.5% DPS of a Black Spinde increase for the Fireteam during Strikes and Raids respectively by throwing Fusion Grenades compared to just shooting 6 Spindles. With Weapons of Light and Illuminated, we see an extra 3.6% and 61.5% DPS of a Black Spindle increase for the Fireteam during Strikes and Raids respectively by throwing Fusion Grenades compared to shooting 6 Spindles. While the numbers do drop if there is a Weapons bubble handy, the Sunsinger can follow up with their own Black Spindle and buffs to further increase damage during prolonged DPS phases.
The Last Word
If you’ve made it this far, kudos to you. I hope you found this piece of Destiny Science to be both fun and informative. If there are any errors in calculation or methods, please let me know. Happy to take questions! Now go out there and throw Fusion Grenades at everything.
While there is current discussion on King’s Fall viability. I would like to point out that this will still likely have an impact on the Rise of Iron raid... Unless all the bosses behave in different ways.
Forgot to mention one small detail when playing solo. You’ll get more grenades and more total damage running Gift of the Sun + Radiant Will than Touch of Flame + Viking Funeral. The extra damage from the latter is meant to be a support combination when playing in a Fireteam.
SOURCE